Citizens influence on the government.

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Boefke
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Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Boefke » 16 Nov 2011, 20:21

Sometimes when you're having a discussion things come up that you've never expected. That's the nice part of having a discussion with someone with a different view.

Now, an interesting thing has crossed my mind....so interesting that I think it would deserve a separate topic.

As we often discuss the consequences of the implementing of freegold, we often come on the subject currency.
Governments are going to be judged by the people with the trust in the use of the currency. Is there a balanced budget people tend to have confidence in the currency and there is little need to exchange currency in gold.

When there is lack of austerity and the government is spending like nowadays is common, people can exchange their currency for gold. This would implement a decline in price of that currency to gold, making it harder for governments to go on with their spending. It forces them to get the confidence back.

This is clear to me, no question about this.

But there is more to this. When a government is running a balanced budget, it's not said where it's spend on. It can be spend on all kind of things.....Medicare, Schooling, Environment things and so on. Here's my point.
When a government is making a lot of expenses on subjects mostly the rich like and are economic good investments (realizing I'm walking on a thin line here)....... a lot of roads, low taxes on property and earnings and low fuel taxes..etc etc. There is a good chance that currency is strong in gold. Agree?

But in the meantime it is cutting spendings on healthcare,social welfare and other things usually used by people with lower budget. Than in my opinion it is possible for a currency to stay strong in gold, but with the majority of the citizens unhappy about the subjects spend on. Agree?

So while it is often stated by me and others that it will be obvious that there will be far more influence of citizens on the governments, this doesn't imply the majority is happy about the way things are going to be. You can switch this example and still have the same result.......

What am I missing here?

Help me out.


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Rasta
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Rasta » 16 Nov 2011, 21:20

Haha, forget everything you know, or think you know.

Governments do not only have to balance their budget - that is a given, they also have to shrink in size dramatically. Currently, the amount of promises made is simply far too big, even under a balanced budget (meaning it will inflate the budget in the future).

Consider this: people around the world will loose confidence in their government, due to the breaking of their promises. Governments will be unable to issue bonds, certainly for the longer term. The impact is they have to rely solely on tax revenue, to pay out the running costs.

People will have to accept the fact that the socialist dream is over. And from there, they have swallow the bitter pill, and move on.

It is the productive capacity of the economy, that will allow for creating a surplus, and thus making a currency stronger. The socialist intervention in that economy, can only make the economy less efficient, less productive.
Eventually there will be an awakening, a balancing of the scales and a bill to be paid, and for that I hold gold - Jim Sinclair

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Blondie
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Blondie » 17 Nov 2011, 08:12

Boefke wrote:When a government is making a lot of expenses on subjects mostly the rich like and are economic good investments (realizing I'm walking on a thin line here)....... a lot of roads, low taxes on property and earnings and low fuel taxes..etc etc. There is a good chance that currency is strong in gold. Agree?

But in the meantime it is cutting spendings on healthcare,social welfare and other things usually used by people with lower budget. Than in my opinion it is possible for a currency to stay strong in gold, but with the majority of the citizens unhappy about the subjects spend on. Agree?

So while it is often stated by me and others that it will be obvious that there will be far more influence of citizens on the governments, this doesn't imply the majority is happy about the way things are going to be. You can switch this example and still have the same result.......
So you think we can or should or are even able to continue to live in fantasyland (putting aside the issue of whether it is ultimately in people's best interests anyway) to keep people happy?
Margaret Thatcher wrote:The problem with socialism in that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Return responsibility to the people. In the future the power will be in the hands of the market, not government. That is a proper democracy.
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

bailouts4ever
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by bailouts4ever » 17 Nov 2011, 09:54

I guess you are right - at least from a theoretic standpoint. But as most of the time theory is one thing, while reality is different.

Rasta is right though from a realistic standpoint. Governments give a s**t about balancing budgets or spending their budgets on "investments" such as infrastructure, health care, education, research etc.

Governments are elected to rule the people and they have two purposes 1) rule the voters and 2) get reelected. Most of the time 1) and 2) are combined as to rule the voters in a way that these voter jerks again vote for the same government. So governments give social bonbons to the people. Welfare here, free insurance there and the voters are happy (as you stated). THAT IS THE ETERNAL CYCLE OF DEMOCRACY.

Problem now is that we can not afford all the give-aways, social benefits and free lunches anymore. Budgets have never been balanced and governments have always shortsightedly kept an eye on the next election rather than on balancing debt. With lack of trust and confidence there is no fresh debt coming in to serve the old plus interest.

The result is that unproductive nations with no or failed business models fall first, followed by nations with weaknesses. In the end it really is the competitiveness that decides over success or failure here.

Who cares about happiness? Certainly not the markets... ;) :) :D
0.00 € is what your account statement will show on a long enough timeline.

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Rasta
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Rasta » 17 Nov 2011, 10:16

In that historical perspective, in the past there were no career politicians. People voted as "the people's" representatives, were people like you and me, with a real job, and doing some governing besides their normal job, for a limited time. (I am thinking here the period of the founding of the USA, declaration of independence)

If you are a career politician, surely there is an incentive to keep your job, just for sake of having a job.

If we have to compare the political world to that historical baseline, we have a very long we to go.
Eventually there will be an awakening, a balancing of the scales and a bill to be paid, and for that I hold gold - Jim Sinclair

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Blondie
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Blondie » 17 Nov 2011, 10:17

Who cares about happiness? Certainly not the markets...
Why does any market-based transaction take place?
Ultimately it is making someone happy. In this respect, happiness is all the market cares about.
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

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Boefke
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Boefke » 17 Nov 2011, 20:30

Blondie wrote:
Boefke wrote:
So you think we can or should or are even able to continue to live in fantasyland (putting aside the issue of whether it is ultimately in people's best interests anyway) to keep people happy?
Margaret Thatcher wrote:The problem with socialism in that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Return responsibility to the people. In the future the power will be in the hands of the market, not government. That is a proper democracy.
I'm definitely not stating that we can continue to live in lala-land. Not even near this.....but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
It's a bit difficult to put in words what I mean, but I will try again.

That the power will be in the hands of the market seems clear to me. That's not what this discussion is about. Actually did no reaction answer my question.

That the power will be in the hands of the market does not mean this "power-vote" represents the feelings of most participants in this market. "The market" contains big players (a few) and small players (allot). So here comes the clue of my problem. What is in the future going to make the difference, that not only the big players decide what's going to be needed. Maybe I'm thinking to practical here, but this confuses me a bit.....

p.s. thank you for all your efforts so far. I understand as it is difficult to explain my thoughts it's more difficult to understand them on the other side of the net :)

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Rasta
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Rasta » 17 Nov 2011, 20:46

I think what you are saying, is that we need the people stop being sheeple. That's something no-one can ensure, but a good loss of confidence will at least break down the former bias, a belief that governments are good and there to protect you, and that governments are not influenced by big corporations and lobbies.
Eventually there will be an awakening, a balancing of the scales and a bill to be paid, and for that I hold gold - Jim Sinclair

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Indiana Jones
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by Indiana Jones » 17 Nov 2011, 21:29

Rasta wrote:I think what you are saying, is that we need the people stop being sheeple. That's something no-one can ensure, but a good loss of confidence will at least break down the former bias, a belief that governments are good and there to protect you, and that governments are not influenced by big corporations and lobbies.
And WAR, no doubt about that !
Everything that needs to be said has already been said.
But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.

bailouts4ever
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Re: Citizens influence on the government.

Post by bailouts4ever » 18 Nov 2011, 09:23

@blondie
If you equal market success e.g. through profits as a measurement for happiness then you are right. Yet, you tend to forget negative "external effects". The investor that makes a profit from bond spreads between France and Germany exploding may be "happy" in your definition. But the tax payers of France may be not - suffering a negative external effect.

@all
I think that we will see some sort of a catalytic event that will trigger things across the tipping point and flush away the bias. From there on there will be no scientific or academic discussions of some nerds about what may or may not be done to control the fate of the state, the economy, the currency. That's when the "managed retreat" as James Turk put it will end. At this point it will be people running for their own sake.

The politician will dive for cover and try to get away from the rampant mob. The scientist will declare that no one could have expected this development. The Average Joe will ask were the savings, retirement and social benefits have gone and go nuts about it. And thus sides will radicalize one way or the other. Using Rasta's terms it is being less "sheepish" - but not in a good or preferable way.

Recent situation shows that it seems to be the only way that "the people" wake up.
0.00 € is what your account statement will show on a long enough timeline.

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