International balance of trade

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Indiana Jones
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Re: @ Indiana Jones

Post by Indiana Jones » 01 Nov 2011, 16:08

Blondie wrote:Indy, thanks for the post in english. I attempted to follow the dutch threads, but once translated they are barely/not understandable, so I have given up.

Thanks also for the concise stating of your position. As in all other spheres, in order to have an objective exchange (in this case of views), we first must establish a reference point for the sake of relativity. Your post does this.
Thank you for your extensive answer. Right now I have little time but will work through all your answers, leaving the original Q&E post in-tact. CU soon.

Greetz, Indy
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Blondie
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Blondie » 01 Nov 2011, 19:13

Paul wrote:To use gold as a reference point for trade suggests the value of the gold is equal in time and in place.
No, it doesn't. It suggests that gold itself is equal in time and space.
Paul wrote:value is relative and in the eye of the beholder.
Of course it is.
Paul wrote:you just can't fix value to something tangible.
Of course one cannot, which is why Freegold is not fixed.
The whole point is that it is free to be valued in the eye of the beholder over and over again at every point in time and space.

Small but crucial things make all the difference to the view.
Paul wrote:trade will find and use the most competitve currency as a reference point. ...
a bit of gold MTM on cb balance just makes for good windowdressing to gain confidence in this currency.
These opinions are based upon your perspective, not mine.
No point in discussing these, only worthwhile discussing the fundamental differences in the perspectives from which opinions are born.
Our fundamental difference appears that you feel Freegold somehow fixes value to gold. To me it means the exact opposite. The value of gold is free to float, just as all others are.
This is the flaw in the past and current systems... all things are valued dynamically, freely changing in the eye of the beholder, all except gold. This is what the market will correct, and then we have Freegold. The market will overwhelm the control of gold's value, and allow it to be found in the eye of the beholder like all others.

You seem to have overlooked the "free" in "Freegold".
Your argument is perfectly valid with all other forms of "gold standard" which always do attempt to peg value and gold. This is not what the market wants, nor is it what works, which is why these systems always end in a devaluation of currency against gold.

Freegold is a dynamic, market-set, permanent state of gold revaluation. The exact opposite of fixing the value of gold.
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

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Indiana Jones
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Indiana Jones » 01 Nov 2011, 21:15

Private messages ..... ;)
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Boefke
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Boefke » 01 Nov 2011, 22:07

Private message? There are more interested people in this discussion than you 2 :lol: :lol:

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Spruitje
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Spruitje » 01 Nov 2011, 23:21

+1
Or... when a cowboy meets a hat, ... they are going private...
We still need a horse. :D
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Paul
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Paul » 02 Nov 2011, 00:12

nobody going private here
this is not about being right or charlie sheen style #winning
I couldn't care less. I enjoy exchanging thought way to much !

I do mail with indy in private, exchanging thoughts about lots of things,
but thoughts are here for everybody to enjoy and learn from.
I learn every day ...

will answer blondie tomorrow, very clear to me where we differ
but to much respect and to much beer to do so in a hurry now.
"Taxes are a barbaric relic of the past"

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Indiana Jones
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Indiana Jones » 02 Nov 2011, 09:56

children or adults, sometimes I wonder .... :shock:

edit: 21:41
Sorry, guess I was a bit edgy.
The pp had nothing to do with the true content of the current freegold discussion.
Last edited by Indiana Jones on 02 Nov 2011, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Blondie
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Blueprint

Post by Blondie » 02 Nov 2011, 10:37

I found the online archives of Another about the same time as Indy, and followed the same path reading FOA and then was happy to find someone blogging about and discussing what I had read there in FOFOA.

The Thoughts of Another were extremely cryptic, but they fitted exceptionally well both with historical and contemporary events. Furthermore this was the first, and remains for me thus far the only, time I had encountered a perspective that could account for all the bewildering array of occurrences in the monetary system. My interest piqued, I read several of FOFOA's posts of early 2010, and after allowing a little time to digest I found a series of light bulbs went on in my mind. I still had many questions, so I did what I always do: I asked them of someone who would likely be able to answer - FOFOA was the only person with an available email address, and as it turned out was very accommodating in sharing his time and perspective with a noob.

One of the first things I asked him for was a blueprint type description. In my very first email I wrote:
I have always felt that our present situation would be simple to understand... It is only that one needs the correct lens through which to view it.
FOFOA did not think the blueprint was possible, nor desirable. I did not agree, but as my own understanding continued to develop I came to see that he was right.

Freegold is very simple. Perhaps in essence too simple to be taken seriously if just the essence is simply put. The thing is that from this simple seed consequences and effects radiate out in every possible direction. It seems there is always another angle from which to consider and understand Freegold's implications anew.

The problem with the simple statement is the one in my quote above: to be understood it must be viewed through the correct lens, or perhaps it is better to say from the correct perspective. It is exactly this that FOA's "Gold Trail" is an analogy for - as we ascend the trail so our perspective is from an ever greater altitude, where the big picture is more readily seen but the details recede. Finally one is left with the overview, where the relationships between all the features of the landscape is revealed. But without being familiar with all those features from up close first, the significance of the overview is lessened. In other words, to thrust the blueprint in front of someone is not necessarily doing them a favor, as the real meaning and significance of Freegold's simplicity is not apparent.

Not everyone who seeks to understand monetary systems comes to see gold as necessary; they are satisfied to lose themselves in the complexities of debt-based modern finance, confident that the answers are in there somewhere if they can ever come to grips with the convoluted intricacies. Of those who decide the answer lies rather with the natural justice of gold the majority remain "hard money socialists", advocating a return to gold and silver as currency or a gold standard. Unfortunately for them, after so much work in attempting understanding, they fall at the final hurdle, so close to their goal of an honest monetary system, and ironically believing they have found it. They have not, for the simple reason that they seem not to understand the nature of what it is that a monetary system actually does - it exchanges value. Value is not static, it is dynamic, it is always moving, just as life is always moving, always changing.

For any monetary system to work equitably for all its users (which is to say for it to be an honest monetary system), must supply an objective reference point for value. This is exactly the same as us requiring an objective reference point to engage in a meaningful discussion on any topic, otherwise we assign subjective values to terms and completely misunderstand one another.
Gold is the natural good to act as this proxy in a value exchange system between people.
Because value is not fixed, neither can be the value of its proxy.

All other documented gold money systems of even remotely modern times have fixed the value of gold, and as a result it has always become further and further undervalued with the passing of time, always culminating with the abrupt devaluation of the currency or abandonment of the existing system altogether and the implementation of a replacement.
The system is always maintained for as long as possible because the currency issuer has access to the value that should naturally be accruing to gold.

The system is always maintained for as long as possible because those in charge of the system are enjoying something for nothing. :mrgreen:
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

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Blondie
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Another

Post by Blondie » 02 Nov 2011, 10:42

As my perspective evolves, I find Another to be less and less cryptic, in fact I would now argue that his Thoughts are not cryptic at all.

He is simply stating, quite bluntly, the view from his perspective.

The closer one gets to sharing this perspective, the more apparent this becomes. :idea:
You don't own your stuff; your stuff owns you.
http://flowofvalue.blogspot.com/

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Rasta
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Re: International balance of trade

Post by Rasta » 02 Nov 2011, 11:48

Well said Blondie.

We all have to walk our own trail to get there: "you don't own your baggage, it owns you." (quote by Blondie)
Eventually there will be an awakening, a balancing of the scales and a bill to be paid, and for that I hold gold - Jim Sinclair

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