Foul solution...

[bailouts4ever]

Hello everybody,

I'd like to combine all our brains into one.

Thus for the last years I have tried to get my head around what other potential foul solutions governments may come up with in order to "stabilize" or further ruin the system. I am not so much concerned about what implications this will have but rather about how that move could limit our approach to personally move towards a better future. To me it seems that there is very little governments can do to fix the current system but quite a few toxic things can be done to ruin everybody's life. More controls, more taxes, gold ban etc.

I know that we are looking for a well functioning and stable system for our future. BUT - it is more than clear that governments across the board do NOT look for that. They look for any "easy fix". That's what they have been looking for all the last years. Until know the attempt was to throw money (or more debt) at it.

So which show killer can governments could governments come up with?

Have you very thought about a gold sales tax as suggested in the US via (H.R. 5141)? See here: http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2010/07 ... r-600.html

[Rasta]

I think you hit the nail on the head. This time around, governments cannot give a solution, as they themselves are the problem.

A solution has to come bottom up. From an historical perspective, that always has been the way; it almost never came top-down.

Something which I do not see. E.g. the "Occupy" movement doesn't even know what the problem is. Nor by Martin Armstrong, as he still calls it "sit together and device a new monetary system". However, if you leave it to the current governments, then it will be top-down. Ultimately, when governments are desperate enough, with confiscation of all that represents wealth.

So the solution has to be bottom-up. In the Another/FOA solution, gold is that disciplining force. Governments can still have their fiat money, but the people are free to vote, where to consolidate their wealth. Under a bad managed currency, people will save in gold. In the best managed currency, people are more relaxed to save in currency.

Something which is taught by the Austrian school of economics, is that the best solution is where all people are free to choose (with their feet). So, I tend to think that the best solution (the next monetary system), simply cannot be devised by "a few" - how brilliant they may be. The best solution is to use the distributed voting power by all people on the world. Alternative currency, or competing currencies. Following the work of Bernard Lietaer, that solution might not be the most efficient, but surely is the most resilient. However, it may take some time (decades, centuries?) until we get there, that even governments can accept that is the best solution.

[Blondie]

So, I tend to think that the best solution (the next monetary system), simply cannot be devised by "a few" - how brilliant they may be....
the best solution is where all people are free to choose (with their feet).

Exactly.

This is where freegold comes in, because it is the solution that has not been devised by "a few", but rather the solution which many feet will choose. "A few" (A/FOA/FOFOA and the euro architects being amongst these) have simply recognized this and aligned themselves and their systems to go with this natural flow rather than foolishly attempt to resist it.

It is not complicated.
The market assigns, without artificial restraint, unencumbered physical gold whatever value necessary to resolve the monetary problems. Case closed.

Less controls, less taxes, more personal responsibility, more personal sovereignty.

[bailouts4ever]

I do agree with you there that a resilient solution that keeps governments on its toes is what we NEED, but so far that is not what we will GET.

Yes freegold is a superior system, but governments are inefficient and will not opt for something that forces them to stick to rules and limits their political abilities to spread gifts to the people and have the finances to do what they want.

Imagine - with no funny money debt to be printed at their disposal - no oversized social spending, no useless investment in bridges that noone needs and no anti-terror wars in Absurdistan...

Thus, the game will be prolonged by governments and thus, they will come up with "foul" solutions harming everybody just to make sure that the old system will continue.

[Blondie]

governments are inefficient and will not opt for something that forces them to stick to rules... the game will be prolonged by governments and thus, they will come up with "foul" solutions harming everybody just to make sure that the old system will continue.

This is what they have been doing.

Its called beating a dead horse. It can only be done for so long. Time's about up.

I don't understand your apparent belief in the absolute power of government. Everything runs its course eventually, must and does change. This is no different.

You can't have bailouts forever.

[Rasta]

I do agree with you there that a resilient solution that keeps governments on its toes is what we NEED, but so far that is not what we will GET.

Yes freegold is a superior system, but governments are inefficient and will not opt for something that forces them to stick to rules and limits their political abilities to spread gifts to the people and have the finances to do what they want.

Imagine - with no funny money debt to be printed at their disposal - no oversized social spending, no useless investment in bridges that noone needs and no anti-terror wars in Absurdistan...

Thus, the game will be prolonged by governments and thus, they will come up with "foul" solutions harming everybody just to make sure that the old system will continue.

It may come to that. If history were a guide, how was that solved in the past? If the people are as ignorant now as they were in the early twenties, we may experience another Weimar situation. Perhaps we learned from our mistakes, and the people may protest and vote for reducing the government, before it is too late? But, once spoiled into being a socialist (getting free goodies), it is extremely hard to come about....

[Boefke]

I do agree with you there that a resilient solution that keeps governments on its toes is what we NEED, but so far that is not what we will GET.

Yes freegold is a superior system, but governments are inefficient and will not opt for something that forces them to stick to rules and limits their political abilities to spread gifts to the people and have the finances to do what they want.

Imagine - with no funny money debt to be printed at their disposal - no oversized social spending, no useless investment in bridges that noone needs and no anti-terror wars in Absurdistan...

Thus, the game will be prolonged by governments and thus, they will come up with "foul" solutions harming everybody just to make sure that the old system will continue.

It may come to that. If history were a guide, how was that solved in the past? If the people are as ignorant now as they were in the early twenties, we may experience another Weimar situation. Perhaps we learned from our mistakes, and the people may protest and vote for reducing the government, before it is too late? But, once spoiled into being a socialist (getting free goodies), it is extremely hard to come about....

This is what is the most interesting part of this transition evaluating before our eyes. History has shown us that a monetary shift has not been smooth.....the system always ended with WAR. Therefore it is extremely important to have a alternative to succeed the system that is coming to an inevitable end. Inevitable because it is against all natural flows, and encouraging irresponsible behaviour.

That was what the €-architects were aware of when they created our new monetary system. Building in progress with more and more participants, worldwide. Let's hope for the sake of mankind that we can face that challenge of a fluent transition...

[Blondie]

History has shown us that a monetary shift has not been smooth...

There is always a massive lack of imagination in visualizing how a new system could function on the part of the masses, because they never understand how the current monetary system operates either. The victor of the war gets to impose the new system. The citizens of all nations participate in the war one way or another, but never understand the true goal. Of course the goal is victory, but the real goal are the spoils and the nature of these spoils is not well understood.

This is where the existence of a unified Europe is so important, greatly lessening the possibility of internal division culminating in such a war. I'm sure I don't need to lecture the members of this forum on the desirability of avoiding armed conflict.

It was always apparent to those who understood the current system from the start that it was only a temporary measure, that it too would breakdown due to inherent flaws, and they used this time to develop a strategy to achieve a differing result for this iteration. This new strategy is exemplified in the common currency and in the severing of this currency's ties with both gold and the nation-state.

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.

All that is valuable in human society depends upon the opportunity for development accorded the individual.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.

Concern for man and his fate must always form the chief interest of all technical endeavors. Never forget this in the midst of your diagrams and equations.

Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.

Force always attracts men of low morality.

God always takes the simplest way.

Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war.

Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions.

Imagination is more important than knowledge.

Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

The only real valuable thing is intuition.

To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle, requires creative imagination and marks real advance in science.

Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.

When the solution is simple, God is answering.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[bailouts4ever]

@ Blondie

You are perfectly right and I guess non of the forum members has any interest in the outbreak of any conflict. I do not think nor believe that Europe will burst into war when the currency or the monetary system fails...Merkel and Sarkozy spread otherwise - but that is just B.S.

So we in "...a touch of genius" can agree that war SHALL NEVER be the answer to such enormous transition. However, the nature of my post was to address exactly this issue. It may not be on us to decide which way to go that is our "all mighty governments" decision.

You said that you could not understand my belief in the power of governments: Well, I do by far not believe that everything can be handled or sorted out by governmental power. Just over the last years we have seen that this is not the case. However, they are left with enough power to steer the uninformed and often ignorant masses in their direction.

This post shall not be a discussion if or if not - it shall be a discussion about which way governments will screw up?

[bailouts4ever]

Let me give you an example on how governments "do what they want" and get praise for it:

There used to a European Central Bank that was so proud of its independence and what great stability it felt attributed to. Yet, in times of crisis they decided to screw all this and do exactly the opposite. They not only broke their own rules but they also broke treaties and the law. An institution like the ECB can thus do what ever it wants and in the end the head of this institution is sent into his retirements with bells, whistles and highest honors.

What a nonsense.

Yet, the implications of such ECB actions are much deeper. What picture does an economic area deliver in which public institutions easily break treaties? What implications does that have on due process? How safe can your financial or even personal life be under such rule?